which game mode?

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HumorlessHat
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which game mode?

knowing what we do about SDiF up to this point, are you more excited about the game’s campaign or the co-op pve mode? (assuming they are two separate game modes) why?
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Kean_1
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Re: which game mode?

Personally, my friends and I are far more excited about the co-op mode as we've been waiting for a proper tactical, military shooter we can play together.

I have to say though, a big part of my excitement has to do with the procedural generation of the game world as this can possibly have a huge impact on the longevity / replayability of the game for us.

Now, that's not to say I'm not looking forward to the campaign but if it's an "on rails", "one and done" affair, then there's really not that much to get excited about (for me). However, if it includes procedural generation as well, then maybe it will be something I enjoy more than I think.
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aggimajera
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Re: which game mode?

HumorlessHat wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:13 am knowing what we do about SDiF up to this point, are you more excited about the game’s campaign or the co-op pve mode? (assuming they are two separate game modes) why?
The campaign. The original pitch for this game was a single player interactive documentary detailing real Marines’ stories in combat. It seemed it was meant to be a window into their experiences as men in uniform during Phantom Fury and return the human element to war media.

Frankly I think the multiplayer serves as a detraction from what this game was first revealed as. If they hadn’t allocated all the resources they’d had towards it I wish they would can the multiplayer. Hell, I still hope Highwire comes to that choice and abandons the multiplayer. I think its creation was a mistake for both moral and practical reasons.

Morally, with its MP element, SDiF runs great risk of becoming a huge source of viable criticism for those who never wanted this project to be realized. I fear greatly that the things that the families of the dead and those surviving combatants didn’t want to materialize will come true thanks to the multiplayer. You will see speedrunners and funny moment compilations of a game set in Fallujah, a battle of which the generation wounds are still fresh. We must remember people died here in a war of questionable motivation. It was a human tragedy, but now we potentially get to watch let’s players make light of it? This is exactly what people feared would come to pass when the game was originally being made, and its impossible to argue against it. Its morally abhorrent. I would argue the notion that all games made that detail real conflict need to be approached with similar sentiment.

Practically, we continue to hear that Highwire is a small team. Since they're so small, would it not have been more sensible to not add a MP and instead create the best single player experience they could that proved the concept? Really drive home the human element of war from all sides, then maybe get more funding for the next project? How does including multiplayer fit into this vision they’d detailed about the "moment of truth"? How does the added workload for this mode serve to that end?

This project is starting to worry me. People in my circle have already begun to turn against it for the lack of updates, perceived emphasis on multiplayer, and probable "early access" features. I get that including MP makes the game more marketable and will draw in more profit. But if that is at the fore of concern then why was Phantom Fury chosen as the backdrop? I thought the goal here was to take the rose tinted glasses off of war to make us question our perception of it. Sticking a bunch of dudes into a lobby to have a fun tactical multiplayer experience seems to me like it will achieve the opposite of that.

Apologies for the soapbox response.
HumorlessHat
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Re: which game mode?

i appreciate the thoughtful responses! i apologize if i touched a nerve posing this question.
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Kean_1
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Re: which game mode?

HumorlessHat wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:47 am i appreciate the thoughtful responses! i apologize if i touched a nerve posing this question.
....no need to apologize IMO as it was a legitimate question posed without any disrespect. SDiF is a game after all with game modes and mechanics. It's a god question in my book because quite frankly, there are those like me looking forward to co-op. ....and I (personally) see no problem with that.

For me, I don't see a moral dilemma offering the a mode to play with friends as team members (co-op) instead of bots. If they were creating a PvP mode with humans playing as insurgents against allied forces, etc. (like Insurgency Sandstorm) then maybe I could see an issue. .....something they have already said they are not willing to do btw. When the term "multiplayer" is used, I think we should be clear as to how it applies in this game as it can cover various kinds of gameplay modes, etc. Specifically, we're talking about "co-op" which currently is the only MP mode being offered.

Look, you can't help if some will play the game and make light of it, posting inflammatory content on YouTube, etc. Restricting the game to only single player isn't going to stop that nor should it IMO. There are going to be those who are offended by this game or elements of it for their own personal reasons and that's fine. It's the same with any game, movie, etc. Being in a family of military vets and first responders, I've seen examples of horrible things some people will say and do and it strikes home with me. ....but let's be clear. No one here is doing that and the developers are being mindful not to with their game. I never agreed with those boycotting this game nor have I seen any elements so far I felt should be cut out.

I'm sorry but if I were grappling with feelings of morality by simply including co-op in SDiF, I would have to question whether I would even support the game. .....but then I would have to include any realistic, military, tactical shooters especially those portraying historical engagements, units and so on. That covers a lot of games over a span of many wars and battles.

My take? Obviously these vets and the rest of team who are helping to create this game are ok with it and so are others that are out there. ....and yes, there are those who aren't who would rather the game not be made under any circumstances. I think their team can still create a game that is both entertaining and educational while still being respectful to those that served or were involved in this battle. Even things like gore, etc. have been taken into account as to not be "over the top" as that could send the wrong message.

Their mission hasn't changed and respectfully, I don't see how co-op multiplayer affects that. For me (and my friends), what co-op provides is an opportunity for us to play the game together as a team. ...to get immersed in the experience, supporting and fighting side by side creating memorable moments. IMO, games like this are actually best experienced with real people working together as a team. ....a sense of camaraderie which you really can't get with bots.
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aggimajera
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Re: which game mode?

Kean_1 wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:57 am
HumorlessHat wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:47 am i appreciate the thoughtful responses! i apologize if i touched a nerve posing this question.
....no need to apologize IMO as it was a legitimate question posed without any disrespect. SDiF is a game after all with game modes and mechanics. It's a god question in my book because quite frankly, there are those like me looking forward to co-op. ....and I (personally) see no problem with that.

For me, I don't see a moral dilemma offering the a mode to play with friends as team members (co-op) instead of bots. If they were creating a PvP mode with humans playing as insurgents against allied forces, etc. (like Insurgency Sandstorm) then maybe I could see an issue. .....something they have already said they are not willing to do btw. When the term "multiplayer" is used, I think we should be clear as to how it applies in this game as it can cover various kinds of gameplay modes, etc. Specifically, we're talking about "co-op" which currently is the only MP mode being offered.

Look, you can't help if some will play the game and make light of it, posting inflammatory content on YouTube, etc. Restricting the game to only single player isn't going to stop that nor should it IMO. There are going to be those who are offended by this game or elements of it for their own personal reasons and that's fine. It's the same with any game, movie, etc. Being in a family of military vets and first responders, I've seen examples of horrible things some people will say and do and it strikes home with me. ....but let's be clear. No one here is doing that and the developers are being mindful not to with their game. I never agreed with those boycotting this game nor have I seen any elements so far I felt should be cut out.

I'm sorry but if I were grappling with feelings of morality by simply including co-op in SDiF, I would have to question whether I would even support the game. .....but then I would have to include any realistic, military, tactical shooters especially those portraying historical engagements, units and so on. That covers a lot of games over a span of many wars and battles.

My take? Obviously these vets and the rest of team who are helping to create this game are ok with it and so are others that are out there. ....and yes, there are those who aren't who would rather the game not be made under any circumstances. I think their team can still create a game that is both entertaining and educational while still being respectful to those that served or were involved in this battle. Even things like gore, etc. have been taken into account as to not be "over the top" as that could send the wrong message.

Their mission hasn't changed and respectfully, I don't see how co-op multiplayer affects that. For me (and my friends), what co-op provides is an opportunity for us to play the game together as a team. ...to get immersed in the experience, supporting and fighting side by side creating memorable moments. IMO, games like this are actually best experienced with real people working together as a team. ....a sense of camaraderie which you really can't get with bots.
We will have to agree to disagree here. You see the reasons for coop, I see the reasons for its omission. It is what it is.

I simply don’t think coop is necessary or even a good thing for a project with this mission statement. I truly don’t, but I’m surrounded by those who do. If you guys are all proven right then I’ll gladly eat my words.
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aggimajera
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Re: which game mode?

HumorlessHat wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:47 am i appreciate the thoughtful responses! i apologize if i touched a nerve posing this question.
Dude it’s a legit question. Apologize for nothing.
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AmperCamper
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Re: which game mode?

Catching up now, guys. Thanks for your perspectives on this.

There are certainly risks with our project, especially when multiplayer is added to the mix. There's always going to be those who try to ruin the experience for everyone else with speedruns and memes (and there are certain steps we're taking to mitigate this), but we believe co-op is a strong component of our project. Four-player human fireteams are certainly a different experience than single-player, but we're providing the context players need in the hopes of scratching what urban combat is like across the board.

Regarding whether the co-op mode could delay the campaign mode: in our case, we had to build the cooperative mode first because the campaign we’re building requires sophisticated insurgent and friendly AI. The co-op game does not require the same level of sophistication for the friendly AI.
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