PvP?

Discussions and chats related to Six Days in Fallujah.
User avatar
Kean_1
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:15 am
Has thanked: 573 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: PvP?

xxinfurnoxx wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:17 amAmperCamper may be able to shed more light on this.
PvP is a subject that has come up several times at least that I've seen since joining in 2021. While it is not planned, Amper's replies have typically been that they have nothing to share regarding adversarial multiplayer. While it's not planned for release, I haven't heard anything in the way of it never being considered at some point. They also have been open to listening to feedback from the community on the subject as they are with most ideas.

The one thing they have been adamantly against though is players taking on the role of insurgents, but as I and others have mentioned before, an adversarial multiplayer mode or PvP does not have to be "insurgents against coalition forces". ....it apparently won't be if the mode ever materializes.

IMO, folks should share their ideas as they always have. Victura has always listened and I doubt that will change. .....so unless you hear it from the horse's mouth that an idea will never happen, fire away and discuss. That's how I feel about it at least.
BobTank63
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:30 am
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 125 times

Re: PvP?

optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:29 am
BobTank63 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:43 am Pls no PvP. Stick with making the CO-OP good.
Or they could just make the co-op good alongside adding PvP, the two don't cancel eachother out.
At the end of the day PvP would take a lot less effort than mastering the AI, and if done properly would also offer a much better experience for players who prefer it like myself, going up against bots can never stack up to actually fighting real players.

- optimise
I don't want to have full release delayed by several months just to implement a PvP system only a small minority will use. It is never as simple as "just add PvP". You have to implement things like anti-cheat, start thinking about balancing, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Developers are people like us, they have limited time and resources.
User avatar
optimise
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: PvP?

Dague wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:56 am
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:29 am
BobTank63 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:43 am Pls no PvP. Stick with making the CO-OP good.
Or they could just make the co-op good alongside adding PvP, the two don't cancel eachother out.
At the end of the day PvP would take a lot less effort than mastering the AI, and if done properly would also offer a much better experience for players who prefer it like myself, going up against bots can never stack up to actually fighting real players.

- optimise
PvP is not coming to the game. Confirmed by the devs. Enemy AI has been mastered at this point.
Amper said that "we don't have anything to share on adversarial multiplayer right now" regarding pvp in this very thread. Doesn't neccessairly mean it isn't a possibility down the line.
User avatar
optimise
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: PvP?

BobTank63 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 am
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:29 am
BobTank63 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:43 am Pls no PvP. Stick with making the CO-OP good.
Or they could just make the co-op good alongside adding PvP, the two don't cancel eachother out.
At the end of the day PvP would take a lot less effort than mastering the AI, and if done properly would also offer a much better experience for players who prefer it like myself, going up against bots can never stack up to actually fighting real players.

- optimise
I don't want to have full release delayed by several months just to implement a PvP system only a small minority will use. It is never as simple as "just add PvP". You have to implement things like anti-cheat, start thinking about balancing, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Developers are people like us, they have limited time and resources.
The game doesn't have to have in-depth balancing, nobody is asking for an esport, and implementing a simple pvp system would take relatively few resources, especially when compared to well-functioning AI systems.
And with the gap in the market of close quarters tactical shooters I would very much doubt it would be a 'small minority' playing such a mode. Most of the people I know who are interested in this game also extensively play pvp shooters and would love an option to do so in a game like SDIF.
I do completely understand if they want to focus on the co-op & campaign first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration down the line.
BobTank63
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:30 am
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 125 times

Re: PvP?

optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:44 am
BobTank63 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 am
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:29 am

Or they could just make the co-op good alongside adding PvP, the two don't cancel eachother out.
At the end of the day PvP would take a lot less effort than mastering the AI, and if done properly would also offer a much better experience for players who prefer it like myself, going up against bots can never stack up to actually fighting real players.

- optimise
I don't want to have full release delayed by several months just to implement a PvP system only a small minority will use. It is never as simple as "just add PvP". You have to implement things like anti-cheat, start thinking about balancing, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Developers are people like us, they have limited time and resources.
The game doesn't have to have in-depth balancing, nobody is asking for an esport, and implementing a simple pvp system would take relatively few resources, especially when compared to well-functioning AI systems.
And with the gap in the market of close quarters tactical shooters I would very much doubt it would be a 'small minority' playing such a mode. Most of the people I know who are interested in this game also extensively play pvp shooters and would love an option to do so in a game like SDIF.
I do completely understand if they want to focus on the co-op & campaign first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration down the line.
IDK. Playing as coalition troops fighting each other is kind of at odds with “authenticity” aspect the devs are aiming for, and they are very adamant about not being able to play as insurgents.
BadKarma
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:59 pm
Has thanked: 546 times
Been thanked: 177 times

Re: PvP?

BobTank63 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:29 am
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:44 am
BobTank63 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 am

I don't want to have full release delayed by several months just to implement a PvP system only a small minority will use. It is never as simple as "just add PvP". You have to implement things like anti-cheat, start thinking about balancing, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Developers are people like us, they have limited time and resources.
The game doesn't have to have in-depth balancing, nobody is asking for an esport, and implementing a simple pvp system would take relatively few resources, especially when compared to well-functioning AI systems.
And with the gap in the market of close quarters tactical shooters I would very much doubt it would be a 'small minority' playing such a mode. Most of the people I know who are interested in this game also extensively play pvp shooters and would love an option to do so in a game like SDIF.
I do completely understand if they want to focus on the co-op & campaign first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration down the line.
IDK. Playing as coalition troops fighting each other is kind of at odds with “authenticity” aspect the devs are aiming for, and they are very adamant about not being able to play as insurgents.
Not only that, but how do you make a pvp experience with entirely procedural houses without it being an unbalanced mess? A PVP game is all about learning the meta, and frankly Six Days looks like it was made with Coop in mind, not to mention during the original 2009 version it was Konami who intended to shove down the pvp aspect, not the Atomic devs.
User avatar
Kean_1
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:15 am
Has thanked: 573 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: PvP?

optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:44 amAnd with the gap in the market of close quarters tactical shooters I would very much doubt it would be a 'small minority' playing such a mode. Most of the people I know who are interested in this game also extensively play pvp shooters and would love an option to do so in a game like SDIF.
I do completely understand if they want to focus on the co-op & campaign first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration down the line.
....all of my PS friends are only really interested in the co-op element of this game. The campaign too for those times playing alone and to experience the stories they have to tell but as far as PvP......not so much.

As for being a consideration down the line, sure. If they feel they want to go that route, I'll support them, but I applaud them for focusing on co-op along with expansions, updates, new features, etc. in that area. IMO / IME, with all the cheating, hacks, trolling, etc. in PvP games, I find more and more people are interested in co-op experiences which are lacking in this space.

Yes, I agree that PvP would make the game more attractive to more people, but that could be said about a lot of other elements that are popular in other games. IMO, it's ok to have a game that concentrates on and expands on a campaign and co-op. Not every game needs to have a PvP mode.

Creating an adversarial game is also not that simple. Balance is a critical factor in the development of a good experience. So is the mitigation of keeping cheaters, griefers, exploiters, etc. from ruining the fun for everyone else. To say those aspects don't warrant in-depth consideration in a game like this is essentially saying it's ok to half-bake it. .....and I get the feeling that if Victura was going to consider such a thing in their game, their efforts won't be hasty.

Seems all the YT influencers I watched play SDiF were pretty satisfied with the co-op, the AI, the procedural generation, sound, etc. I don't recall any of them making a case for a PvP mode if it was even mentioned.

Either way, I guess we'll have to wait and see what Victura does but my guess is that if PvP does become a reality, it's implementation will be a long way off past full release in 2024.
User avatar
optimise
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: PvP?

Kean_1 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:36 am ....all of my PS friends are only really interested in the co-op element of this game. The campaign too for those times playing alone and to experience the stories they have to tell but as far as PvP......not so much.
Seems all the YT influencers I watched play SDiF were pretty satisfied with the co-op, the AI, the procedural generation, sound, etc. I don't recall any of them making a case for a PvP mode if it was even mentioned.
Well, I suppose we just know different kinds of players. As someone who plays on PC and knows most people in the space from tactical pvp shooters I can tell you that the demand for a game like SDIF w/pvp is very strong.
Kean_1 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:36 am Yes, I agree that PvP would make the game more attractive to more people, but that could be said about a lot of other elements that are popular in other games. IMO, it's ok to have a game that concentrates on and expands on a campaign and co-op. Not every game needs to have a PvP mode.
Agreed, but with pvp being something that doesn't hurt other aspects of the game & considering how much it would expand the target audience I'd say it's more than warranted in SDIF. I wouldn't mind them focusing on the campaign & co-op first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration for the future.
Kean_1 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:36 am Creating an adversarial game is also not that simple. Balance is a critical factor in the development of a good experience. So is the mitigation of keeping cheaters, griefers, exploiters, etc. from ruining the fun for everyone else. To say those aspects don't warrant in-depth consideration in a game like this is essentially saying it's ok to half-bake it. .....and I get the feeling that if Victura was going to consider such a thing in their game, their efforts won't be hasty.
Cheats, Exploits & Glitches have to be addressed anyhow, if anything having pvp would help by accelerating the speed at which those are found.
And yeah, making a fun pvp title is not so straightforward, but considering the potential returns & demand in the market in comparacent to the effort it'd take I'd say it's 100% worth it for SDIF, even if it isn't as extensive as co-op and doesn't take place on procedurally generated maps for example, simply being able to face off against human opponents would be huge.

- optimise
Dague
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:16 am
Location: Delaware
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: PvP?

Kean_1 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:36 am
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:44 amAnd with the gap in the market of close quarters tactical shooters I would very much doubt it would be a 'small minority' playing such a mode. Most of the people I know who are interested in this game also extensively play pvp shooters and would love an option to do so in a game like SDIF.
I do completely understand if they want to focus on the co-op & campaign first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration down the line.
....all of my PS friends are only really interested in the co-op element of this game. The campaign too for those times playing alone and to experience the stories they have to tell but as far as PvP......not so much.

As for being a consideration down the line, sure. If they feel they want to go that route, I'll support them, but I applaud them for focusing on co-op along with expansions, updates, new features, etc. in that area. IMO / IME, with all the cheating, hacks, trolling, etc. in PvP games, I find more and more people are interested in co-op experiences which are lacking in this space.

Yes, I agree that PvP would make the game more attractive to more people, but that could be said about a lot of other elements that are popular in other games. IMO, it's ok to have a game that concentrates on and expands on a campaign and co-op. Not every game needs to have a PvP mode.

Creating an adversarial game is also not that simple. Balance is a critical factor in the development of a good experience. So is the mitigation of keeping cheaters, griefers, exploiters, etc. from ruining the fun for everyone else. To say those aspects don't warrant in-depth consideration in a game like this is essentially saying it's ok to half-bake it. .....and I get the feeling that if Victura was going to consider such a thing in their game, their efforts won't be hasty.

Seems all the YT influencers I watched play SDiF were pretty satisfied with the co-op, the AI, the procedural generation, sound, etc. I don't recall any of them making a case for a PvP mode if it was even mentioned.

Either way, I guess we'll have to wait and see what Victura does but my guess is that if PvP does become a reality, it's implementation will be a long way off past full release in 2024.
I don’t think these devs are making this game to attract other people. I think they just want to tell the story of what happened there through an interactive experience.

You also answered the question at hand. I don’t see PvP being viable because of the points you made:

1) Devs stated that there will be no playable insurgents, Period.

2) Coalition vs Coalition killing each other is not realistic or authentic . This game stresses realism and authenticity.

I just don’t see PvP ever coming to the game and rightfully so. Games like Squad exist for a reason. This game has its own separate purpose.
User avatar
Kean_1
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:15 am
Has thanked: 573 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: PvP?

optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:28 pmWell, I suppose we just know different kinds of players. As someone who plays on PC and knows most people in the space from tactical pvp shooters I can tell you that the demand for a game like SDIF w/pvp is very strong.
I think it's a given that people already interested or from the "tactical PvP shooter space" would welcome this feature in a game like SDiF. ....but again, that doesn't mean this game needs to tap into that market to do well. That's obviously not the direction Victura wants to go, at least for now as they haven't completely dismissed the idea.
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:28 pm Agreed, but with pvp being something that doesn't hurt other aspects of the game & considering how much it would expand the target audience I'd say it's more than warranted in SDIF. I wouldn't mind them focusing on the campaign & co-op first, but pvp should definitely be a consideration for the future.
Like I said though, I just don't see it as a necessity personally. I think they can still remain healthy in the solo/coop segment without relying on PvP. There are other games that have/do.
optimise wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:28 pm Cheats, Exploits & Glitches have to be addressed anyhow, if anything having pvp would help by accelerating the speed at which those are found. And yeah, making a fun pvp title is not so straightforward, but considering the potential returns & demand in the market in comparacent to the effort it'd take I'd say it's 100% worth it for SDIF, even if it isn't as extensive as co-op and doesn't take place on procedurally generated maps for example, simply being able to face off against human opponents would be huge.
Things like glitches for sure are a problem no matter if we're talking about a solo game, co-op, PvP, etc. However, issues like cheating, exploiting, trolling / griefing and similar really only become a problem in competitive multiplayer. If there is anything in that respect to be addressed in solo / co-op (if at all), it's minimal by comparison to PvP where it would be critical in regard to fairness, balance and the overall player experience.

As far as demand, etc., again, I really don't get the impression that is Victura's main focus with this game. I think they would be perfectly satisfied with something that proves healthy enough to sustain itself without PvP. Although I'd wager that if they found a way to implement a PvP mode that they feels fits with the game, then who knows what the future may hold.

Personally, I think the procedurally generated game world would be a game-changer in the PvP space. I think someone mentioned earlier that this would be an issue for gameplay balance but I don't think that would necessarily be the case. Neither team would have knowledge of the layout and could start from opposing, static spawn areas leading into the conflict zone that procedurally regenerates after each match. It could be objective based, etc.

Pathways could still be controlled to make the game more balanced but again, this would take a lot of work. In either case, I think this would be something that could really set their PvP mode (or perhaps an unattached game) apart from others.

In either case, creating a PvP mode in this game will take resources from updates to the solo and co-op aspects of the game. ....and for a relatively small studio like this, that's an impact that certainly will be felt by the community.
Dague wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:19 pmI don’t think these devs are making this game to attract other people. I think they just want to tell the story of what happened there through an interactive experience.
I don't think so either. I have a feeling they would be perfectly happy with a solo / co-op game that is healthy to support post-launch updates, new features, etc. [/quote]
Dague wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:19 pmYou also answered the question at hand. I don’t see PvP being viable because of the points you made:

1) Devs stated that there will be no playable insurgents, Period.

2) Coalition vs Coalition killing each other is not realistic or authentic . This game stresses realism and authenticity.

I just don’t see PvP ever coming to the game and rightfully so. Games like Squad exist for a reason. This game has its own separate purpose.
I think this is where we'll never see common ground because while I don't have an interest in a PvP element in this game, I'm not necessarily against it. ....or at least I'm not for the same reasons like how it can be implemented without involving the "insurgent vs. coalition forces" problem.

As far as remaining "realistic", the game can still remain so in all other aspects without the faction equation. I don't think the idea needs to be sold as part of the historical accuracy of he campaign, etc. It could be marketed as a separate experience but one that uses procedural generation and all of the gameplay elements folks like us enjoy in games like these.

Anyhow, that's the way I see it. While I don't care to have PvP in SDiF, I do see potential in it. .....even if somewhat distanced from SDiF or maybe in a stand-alone game. The procedural generation, if they could do it, would be something new in the PvP genre. I cant really think of another game that does that.
Post Reply