I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

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temp89
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I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

Even if they were sincere, there's no way this could be done.
Three days before the Invasion, over 1,000,000 flyers were dropped from the sky over the city, stating any military age male over the age of 12 will be considered hostile and shot on sight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Ba ... n_presence

Will this game have us shooting at teenagers? Of course not, even putting aside the PR nightmare, the devs are a small outfit. Their Militia characters will almost certainly use the same animation skeleton as their Marine characters due to their limited resources. It might have some unique animations to portray a looser less tactical moveset, but right there the compromise begins.

Because now the enemy looks and moves similar to our broad-chested marines. Now they look like an equivalent enemy soldier. An acceptable target. Just like that the events the game purports to painstakingly recreate have become more sanitised. The enemy characters will never look like "military-age males" of 12. They will never fumble with the guns they're so unfamiliar with. Their weapon-pool will be limited and fully-functional, like the standard-issue loadout of an army, rather than a hodge-podge from poorly maintained caches and armories.
Marines fired on a civilian vehicle that did not stop at a checkpoint in Fallujah, killing an Iraqi woman and wounding her husband, according to the US military and witnesses. The driver did not notice the checkpoint, witnesses said.
http://archive.boston.com/news/world/mi ... s_to_flee/

You will never see this scene in the game? Why? Many reasons, but above all because it's boring. It is a game. A product meant to be consumed. Why waste resources on a level where the player stands around for ages then fires on a target that can't shoot back?
US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.
The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.

BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.

Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4440664.stm

Using WP against enemy combatants. Maybe they'll show it, maybe they won't. One thing they almost certainly won't provide is context. They won't cover the Pentagon's strenuous denials over the subsequent months that it was ever used as a weapon. They won't cover how it nearly risked UK involvement, because like many countries WP is considered a chemical weapon there and the UK army has rules forbidding its involvement in theatres where it's deployed as one.

And that's giving them the benefit of the doubt. Their PR has been very forthright on what stance the game will be taking. How many quotes from Marines did the trailer have? Because there's such a dearth of documentaries examining Iraq from the US PoV... We'll hear of their combat stress, their troubles that followed them even after they returned home. Know who we won't hear from? Fallujah residents. They're the ones who had to return to their shattered city. They didn't even have the option of leaving it all behind. They have to live it.
Lawlessness and fear gave al-Zarqawi his moment, and he was prepared
They had to be stopped, else the country would turn over to al-Qaeda


Do you know what a joke that is to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the events? There wasn't some evil mastermind who had martialled an army poised to flood over the country if they held this strongpoint.
In April, Fallujah was defended by about 500 "hardcore" and 1,000+ "part time" insurgents. By November, it was estimated that the numbers had doubled.[32]
Fallujah was occupied by virtually every insurgent group in Iraq: al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), Islamic Army of Iraq (IAI), Ansar al-Sunna, Army of Mohammed (AOM), the Army of the Mujahedeen and the Secret Islamic Army of Iraq. Three groups, (AQI, IAI and the National Islamic Army (1920 Revolution Brigade)) had their nationwide headquarters in Fallujah. An estimated 2,000 insurgents were from the Army of Mohammed (made up of ex Fedayeen Saddam fighters), Ansar al-Sunna and various smaller Iraqi groups.[34]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Ba ... ent_forces

It was a complete mix of a whole bunch of groups and ideologies.

Perhaps the most succinct summary of the devs' approach are these conflicting quotes:
‍Will you recreate the death of a real Marine or Soldier?

We will not recreate the death of a specific servicemember during gameplay without their family’s permission. Instead, Marines and Soldiers describe the sacrifices of their teammates during video interviews.
https://www.sixdays.com/faq
“It’s hard to understand what combat is actually like through fake people doing fake things in fake places,” says Peter Tamte, CEO of Victura.
https://www.sixdays.com/news

They won't show the death of a coalition servicemember (pending permission). They will show the deaths of countless militia. Because no one pictures them having families to withhold permission. They don't have names. They are a faceless generic scary horde. The people we killed over there weren't "real", like you and me. They were fake people.
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jop
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Re: I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

It's unrealistic to think any game, regardless of what they show will make you (the player/viewer) accurately understand the feelings, atmosphere and or occurrences that truly went on there. Yes, there'll be things they do not show. Yes, there'll be scenes and images they cut because of sensitivity but there's a possibility of a game company being able to portray the emotions and feelings that soldiers (Insurgent and or American) went through during this war.

temp89 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:32 amYou will never see this scene in the game? Why? Many reasons, but above all because it's boring. It is a game. A product meant to be consumed. Why waste resources on a level where the player stands around for ages then fires on a target that can't shoot back?

Using WP against enemy combatants. Maybe they'll show it, maybe they won't. One thing they almost certainly won't provide is context. They won't cover the Pentagon's strenuous denials over the subsequent months that it was ever used as a weapon. They won't cover how it nearly risked UK involvement, because like many countries WP is considered a chemical weapon there and the UK army has rules forbidding its involvement in theatres where it's deployed as one.

And that's giving them the benefit of the doubt. Their PR has been very forthright on what stance the game will be taking. How many quotes from Marines did the trailer have? Because there's such a dearth of documentaries examining Iraq from the US PoV... We'll hear of their combat stress, their troubles that followed them even after they returned home. Know who we won't hear from? Fallujah residents. They're the ones who had to return to their shattered city. They didn't even have the option of leaving it all behind. They have to live it.
The gritty alleyway fighting, the close-quarter combat that some soldiers experienced, children in the streets and mourning families can and are possible to show — will they? Good question, we don't know and I'm going to hope they do (in a sense) because I'd like something that looks and feels real, whilst appealing to the masses and portraying the real gruesome reality of what this war was.

No game nor movie will EVER accurately depict what truly happened, and I hope you know that. Don't put your expectations on an extreme gore, bone-dry experience of war because as you know, this company needs to make money but also wants to create this project as accurate (and as enjoyable) as possible. There's limitations and drawbacks they need to make, but the million dollar question will be what those drawbacks are and how they will effect the overall play ability and story-driven narrative they try to achieve here.
Perhaps the most succinct summary of the devs' approach are these conflicting quotes:

Will you recreate the death of a real Marine or Soldier?

We will not recreate the death of a specific service member during gameplay without their family’s permission. Instead, Marines and Soldiers describe the sacrifices of their teammates during video interviews.


“It’s hard to understand what combat is actually like through fake people doing fake things in fake places,” says Peter Tamte, CEO of Victura.


They won't show the death of a coalition servicemember (pending permission). They will show the deaths of countless militia. Because no one pictures them having families to withhold permission. They don't have names. They are a faceless generic scary horde. The people we killed over there weren't "real", like you and me. They were fake people.
I don't actually know what they mean by they won't re-create the deaths of specific service members — does this mean reported service deaths that are in real life? Or does this mean deaths overall from the Invading side? I can't tell, but obviously they will incorperate deaths for the Invading side (America, British, Iraqi) in the sense we commonly experience in games (alongside cinematic and single player narratives they provide) but re-creating the deaths of real life soldiers is weird and I really don't feel comfortable with that, even if their families give permission.

Realism, playability and accuracy is key but there is a limit and so should there be. I just think as long as the overall theme and drive is realistic? I'm OK with the project as a whole.
xd_redcapn
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Re: I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

They said that this game will try to depict war as accurately as possible. This game will probably be Saving Private Ryan but in the Iraq war and a video game. There are some things you don't want to see like shooting 12 year olds but it happened I don't think that should be a playable segment but a cutscene so it is remembered (I'm just saying it shouldn't be playable since that would be a PR nightmare.) But like you said about the people who were shot who missed the checkpoint I would want to play that since it actually happened. as someone who enjoys history i wouldn't mind waiting 5-10 min for an event if it happened with the commentary of someone who was there.
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Re: I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

Might as well through my two cents in...

To go through all of the points in the OP, let's get something out of the way (Which addresses most of the "problems"): this game is being built on the Unreal 4 Engine, so there is no excuse for the game to be lacking features. Unlike with original project back in 2009, the developers don't need to code the game from scratch. All they really need to do is just use majority of the pre-made assets and features already available in the Unreal Engine and code in any assets or capabilities that the engine doesn't already contain. This will greatly reduce development time, and offer the devs more freedom in regards to pushing the limits of what they want the game to be capable of doing.

HOWEVER, that being said, that doesn't give the excuse for the developers to be lazy in regards to the features (Or lack there of) contained within the game. Do NOT mistake what I'm about to say as criticizing Victura or Highwire as I don't not know how "good" the game will be or what exactly it will contain (All we have are just indications based on some information about the developers being mostly old Bungie veterans). What I AM referring to is the common fact that an overwhelming amount of the video games released in the past decade seem to be suffering from feature depreciation. If you want to know exactly what I'm referring to, I'd advise that you browse Crowbcat's YouTube channel as the guy has spent the past few years showing exactly this; but the summary of it is that, as newer and newer games keep getting released, with more money being invested and more developers working on the project, and running on more powerful hardware, somehow, these same games keep looking staler and more generic, remove graphical and audio effects, remove gameplay ticks and features, and leaving the players with an unoptimized mess that (Somehow) is more resource and storage demanding than a game that was released over a decade ago (With said decade old game performing better, looking better, sounding better, playing better, and containing more content).

Like I said, I am not criticizing Victura or Highwire as the pedigree they're claiming to have does lead me to have high hopes in regards to what the final product will be. And, that's on top of how they won't need to spend as much time making the game since majority of the assets and the engine are already finished. However, to then declare that asking for some simpler features to exist just because they can (Probably should) is "Asking 'too much' of them in 'this day and age'" (CY+6) is outright audacious and patronizing when older games managed to have more with less.

Moving on, let's talk about you second point which is the killing of children in video games. First question: why not? Second question: why did older games never have this problem? As far back as the 90's to as recent as a decade ago, you had games that allowed you to kill children. And these were not obscure games, they were HUGE titles: Star Wars, Balders Gate, Dead Space, Silent Hill, Fallout, Deus Ex, Bioshock, Dragon Age, Warcraft, Crusader Kings, The Witcher, Dark Souls. How did all of these series manage to allow the player to kill children, yet never suffer any consequences for it when it came to the game's PR? In addition, why does this concern seem like a relatively new and exaggerated "issue" that never seemed to exist prior? And, why do people INSIST on making this an "issue"? Take, for example, the recent fiasco surrounding Cyberpunk 2077. Of one of the many issue with the game, one that came out is that you cannot kill children in the game. The news and some of the game's defenders have deflected this as being a desire only so-called "psychopaths" are insistent upon. The only PROBLEM with that argument is that, in a cyberpunk world, where vice is common and a way to make a daily living (Especially in a fictional city with the "highest crime rates in the world"), the killing of children should absolutely be a common occurrence given the setting. And, an action the player is capable of committing. It's not the "hidden" desire of a psychopath (And, even then, what's wrong with acting like a psycho in a video game?), it's the desire to be fully immersed in the game's world. It's the desire for the game to be grounded in it's environment. And, in a game world where vice is allowed in all other formats, the "crossing of lines" should be a valid option.

Now, let's move away from the fictional world of Cyberpunk 2077 to the realistic world of late 2004 Falujiah. You brought up the fact that children may have been present during the conflict, and that would have lead to any of the military forces shooting kids on site. First of all, that's war. That's going to happen. It's BEEN happening since Vietnam, when American soldiers had to decide to shot at Vietnamese insurgents who had babies strapped them as meat shields. To deny that it happened will the lessen the reality of the situation, which would severely detract from the game's intention of trying to depict a real event as realistic as they can in an interactive format. If people find that to be “crossing the line”, then they shouldn’t be playing a video game about brutal war in the first place. Especially so when the part of the intention behind SDiF was to disturb the player by being a “survival horror” game rather than a heroic shooter. Even making the killing of a child take place in a cutscene or cinematic would lessen the blow because the player wouldn’t be having any emotion attached to the event because it wasn’t a result of their action. Second of all, referring to your source, over 70%-90% of the city's population evacuated before the conflict occurred. What that would imply is that you'd hope that included all of the women and children as well (Realistic, it probably didn't, but I'll get to that). How that would translate over into gameplay is that you'd be having firefights, isolated incidents, and CQC taking place in a mostly deserted city. You'd happen upon people, but it would be relatively rare. And, to happen upon Al-Qaeda insurgents using women and children would only serve to deepen the emotional blow because it would also show how they would use anyone and everyone (Regardless of age, race, and sex) to further their cause regardless of the death toll. In addition, this could also be used as a way to show how these groups are turning women and children into "damaged goods", indoctrinating them into a destructive belief that they will die for regardless of whether or not they wanted it or had a choice to join it.

This also moves onto the next point you had complaining about the marines firing on the civilian vehicle and claiming that it's "boring" because "nothing happened". That isn't how it works. In typical survival horror games, "nothing happening" is a sigh of relief because that means you don't have waste your already scarce ammo or worry about trying to evade any enemies. Personally, if I was making this game, I'd make regular occurrences such as the "possibly harmless vehicle driving along the road" with it being random generated over whether or not there are insurgents in the vehicle waiting to to fire on you. And, add stealth elements to where if you don't fire, stay out of sight, and the insurgents in the vehicle drive by without noticing you, then that's a valid method of completing the game. Also, how do you think the player will feel when they do end up shooting at people, and they end up being innocent civilians?

In regards the the usage of white phosphorus, Spec Ops: The Line managed to get away with using it. Also, why not make it a player decision over whether or not it's used in battle, with the player later suffering health side-effects as a result (See S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and the radiation system in those games). Also, not all of the blame can be placed upon the U.S. for state of the city when later studies have found FUCKING URANIUM contaminants on the city's populace. When was the U.S. mining uranium in the Middle East? I'm not justifying anything that happened over a decade ago (Especially when everything before 2012 is completely filtered to either the story of "Glorious America saving the suffering Iraqi people from the evil Al-Qeada by giving them democracy, and we did NOTHING wrong" or "Evil America destroyed a growing government for unlimited access to their oil reserves and justified it by declaring a witch hunt on an extremely small group of rebels", leaving everyone growing up afterwards completely confused as to what the Hell actually happened over there during the 90's and 2000's), but declaring one side to be completely justified or guilty in their actions is completely unrealistic.

As far as who the game should appeal to so that Victura or Highwire can make a profit, it seems really simple. You have the /k/ommandos who buy games like Arma, Escape from Tarkov, Operation Flashpoint, and Insurgency because they're a fan of military sims. You have survival horror fans who will be wanting to play something new. You have the general audience by planning to make console versions (PLEASE finish developing the PC version BEFORE the fine-tuning the console version). You have people who are fans of the "Desert Storm" aesthetic, and miss it. AND, you will have people who want to play the game just to satisfy their curiosity if/when any controversy surrounding the game does resurface. As long as they satisfy the niches that the game reaches towards (Plus any bonus sales that happen regardless of whether or not the game experiences any controversy), they should see a stable return if they don't blow the budget.
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Re: I have severe doubts the game will be able to accurately recreate the events

Don’t over think it. It’s a video game. I am sure they will do the best they can regardless.
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