Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

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Recon4thCav
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Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals ... olumeI.pdf

If you go to page 106. LTC Newel states there were 0 civilians. If there are no civilians and only insurgents. Weapons become free. So please keep saying what I'm saying is wrong and I'll keep proving everything I say is backed by facts.

Like my opinion on the game or not. I will always show proof. Unlike others, I will never lie or sugarcoat the truth.
evan466
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

I believe you are referring to the part of the interview on page 99 where Newel is asked about the embedded reporters and mentions that they had no problem with them in his units because "it was obvious that there was no civilians in the Eastern part of Fallujah at all. So, rather than hearing report after report of the possibilities of massive deaths of civilians, we had reporters sending out reports that there were no civilians there."

Based on what I've read in this interview, it does not sound like Newel's men ever really entered the city until they reached the industrial area. They were on highway 10 (Phase Line Fran) acting as a blocking force for most of it before heading into the industrial complex where he mentioned that "in the south (industrial area) it was clearly nothing but foreign fighters. In fact, we'd later learned that the foreign fighters had chased out all the native Iraqis in that district months ahead of time."

So, if he'd told his men there were no civilians in these areas he operated in, it seems he was proven correct based what he's related here to the interviewer. But, solely based on his interview here, there's no evidence that he ever relayed to his men that there were no civilians here. He only said "it was obvious that there were no civilians in the eastern part of Fallujah."

I also think this article does much more to hurt the point you've been trying to make than help it. Just scanning through this I can find numerous instances of soldiers and marines showing restraint within the city to avoid civilian casualties among clear decisions made by commanders to avoid or limit civilian losses as much as possible. The US Military seemed to show a tremendous amount of restraint in this battle from what I can see just in this article you have shared.
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

Do you really think LTC Newell would not tell his soldiers there were 0 civilians there? I'm telling you he did tell us- 0 civilians!
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

Restraint? That's funny. We destroyed that city. They are still feeling the effects today. Look at all the birth defects that we caused. Yup great Restraint! I'm not ashamed what we did, just yet again there is plenty of proof we did not show restraint with pictures and videos.
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

https://mca-marines.org/bsp/bsp-middlee ... -fallujah/

Here showing you were phase line Fran is. It was in the city.
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

SSG Bellavia was awarded the MOH on his actions on the 10th of November. Those proving again we were not outside the city, but inside.
evan466
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

Recon4thCav wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:08 pm Do you really think LTC Newell would not tell his soldiers there were 0 civilians there? I'm telling you he did tell us- 0 civilians!
I believe you. I just don't think the interview you linked to showed the definitive proof you think it does. I can see from his interview he believed there were no civilians in that part of the city and from that I can infer that he might have told his men that there were no civilians in that area, but I could not say it happened with absolute certainty. If he had said, "I told my men there were no civilians in that area" that would be different.

I'm am not sure what you want me to look at with the new link you have shared.

And I didn't say you never entered the city. I only meant it did not look like highway 10 was outside of the city as it appears to be on this map on page 9 of this article (https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/FALLUJAH.pdf.) Perhaps I misunderstood 2-2's position based on Newel's testimony. Of course that doesn't matter because either way Newel later says that his men entered the industrial area of the city. So, I never disputed that 2-2 entered the city.

I am skeptical, not of what you say you experienced, but when you try to speak for other people like Newel here. It's hearsay when you say he told you there were 0 civilians. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Ultimately, I don't really understand you point here. Your experience was wholly your own. You say you had no ROE, okay I believe. Other guys say they followed a strict ROE, I believe them too. The game is telling the experience of the guys who shared their story. Just because they experienced it differently than you doesn't make their story any less truthful.
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

Here, I will explain our movement inside the city. Refer to page 15 it shows us from Nov 7th-10th inside the city. We had to stop our push because the Marines were not clearing the houses as fast as us. So we stopped at Highway 10 or phase line Fran is.

Let me explain phase lines. All phase lines are inside the city and used as a reference point so no unit pushes to far into the city. It was beyond dangerous and the last thing we wanted was someone pushing to far into the city and being cut off. Or God forbid a plt or whatever pushing to far then getting hit by friendly fire.

On page 40 you can see we moved the 11th of Nov to another AO inside the city. Where we continued to clear the city.

Now back to Nov 7th-10th. We had already made it to phase line Fran by the 9th of Nov if I remember correctly, but the Marines had yet to reach it. So 2nd Plt F Troop, 4th Cavalry with some of 2-2 Infantry started doing an over watch from phase line Fran. Myself in 1st platoon F Troop, 4th Cavalry with the rest of 2-2 Infantry. Back tracked to reclear houses that we cleared the day before because we were given intel they moved from the Marines AO into ours. As I stated on 10th of Nov SSG Bellavia was awarded the MOH on a house we cleared the day before while we waited for the Marines to catch up.

It was a complete shit show. Even if you cleared a house, 60 minutes later it was deemed not clear.

If you have other questions, I will do my best to explain. I hope that helps with our movement. I can see how it could be confusing to someone that was not there or never served.
Recon4thCav
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

As this document shows LTC Newel and a Marine LTC meet every morning. What do you think they did every morning? They shared intel. In a major battle like this- Intel is the most important thing we needed. As LTC Newell also stated the Marines and Army worked very well together and nothing but respect for each other. So if LTC Newell was given the information about 0 civilians, I guarantee to you he shared it with the Marines near us. 1-3 Marines.

Also it is not hearsay when I say what he said to us. No good Commanding Office would not tell his soldiers that there were 0 civilians in the city. That is a game changer. What 1-3 Marines did with the Intel we gave them, I have 0 idea. I was just worried about us.

Again you can try to split hairs to try to prove me wrong, but anyone that was actually there, had a leadership rule, and was on the eastern side will verify this information.
evan466
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Re: Proof I was told 0 civilians!!!

Thank you for the very detailed post, I find these sorts of things very interesting to learn and read about. When I was writing a paper about the Battle of Ia Drang Valley as an undergrad I made a point of it to learn the order of battle on both sides and their relative locations throughout the battle so that I could to try and better understand what happened.

One thing I'm definitely not trying to do is prove you wrong here. As I said, these experiences are your own, and when you say saw or hear this or that while you were there I believe you're telling the truth. And I encourage you to share more of your experiences, it's one of the reasons I was initially excited for this game when it was originally announced over 10 years ago. You have all these stories of what people went through in Fallujah and I think they're stories worth being told. And I think there is a legitimate concern with whether you can properly tell them through a video game. But I'd like to give Ventura a chance to show they can tell these stories before I condemn them.
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