Question on ROE

Discussions and chats related to Six Days in Fallujah.
Recon4thCav
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Question on ROE

I know the Army had no ROE in Operation Phantom Fury. We had a greenlight to kill everyone. I thought the Marines had thier ROE lifted also. With that being said, why would the video game end if you kill anyone that is not on the US side? It was not a war crime or I would be in jail and many more of us would be. Seems like it is changing the true story of Fullajah.
evan466
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:59 am
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Question on ROE

I think you’ve gotten that information from one of the original trailers from the game in 2009, right? I don’t know if that’s still part of the game.

But I wanted to agree with you. It does seem like it would be changing the story.
Tan_47
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:26 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Question on ROE

It seems that Recon is referring to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41

I know Read Omohundro stated in a 2009 interview that this was a function in the original game (starting at 2:11).


Now, I'm not an expert concerning the rules of engagement during the battle of Fallujah (I'm a civilian), but from what I've researched it seems that the rules of engagement where relaxed to the point where anybody who posed a threat or got in the way could be engaged.

So, a civilian that happens to be in Fallujah wouldn't pose as a threat unless they've some kind of weapon with them.

If there's anything to what I'm saying that is wrong, please point it out. But, as far as I'm concern, it seems that the rules of engagement would still have some parameters and wasn't simply a free-for-all.

In addition, I don't think the developers want to allow players to deliberately shoot innocents and have no consequences for those actions since that would simply encourage shooting everyone in sight.
Tan_47
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:26 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Question on ROE

I suppose a solution would be having a scoring system (similar to SWAT 4) where engaging a civilian will lead to a deduction at your overall score. This could be done in each scenario that the game will have and allow a level of replayability for players who want to get a perfect score.
https://swat-4.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of ... Engagement

I think we also have to consider that the developers want to be accurate to the eye-witness accounts from the soldiers and civilians - whether those actions were made could also depend on the given account.
Last edited by Tan_47 on Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Recon4thCav
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Question on ROE

No. My orders were, I could engage anyone. If a mom was walking her 3 yr old down the street, I could kill both and no questions would be asked. There was no ROE.
Recon4thCav
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Question on ROE

This was 2-2 Infantry and F Troop, 4th Cavalry(BRT) getting our briefing before we pushed in. People need to come to terms Fallujah was ugly and you did anything to make sure you and your brothers came home. Them lifting the ROE saved hundreds of US lives.
Attachments
FB_IMG_1528664686689.jpg
FB_IMG_1528664686689.jpg (67.38 KiB) Viewed 5332 times
Last edited by Recon4thCav on Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tan_47
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:26 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Question on ROE

After looking up some documents and sources concerning Operation Phantom Fury, I found a document from Boston University that claims that Marines had some form of rules of engagement (https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/fil ... 3-2011.pdf).

In the 16th page of the document, it states the following:

The 1st Marine Division's official rules of engagement for Operation Phantom Fury, to
control Fallujah were that "no forces are declared hostile. However, individuals within the
Fallujah AO who are carrying arms openly are demonstrating hostile act/intent unless there is
evidence to the contrary; pose an imminent threat to Coalition Forces, and may be attacked
subject to the following restrictions." The ROE then specify that marines should "minimize
collateral damage to innocent persons and property." Marines should "not target or strike any of
the following except in self-defense to protect yourself, your unit, friendly forces and designated
persons or property under your control."
1. Non-combatant civilians
2. Hospitals, mosques, churches, shrines, schools, museums and other historical and cultural
sites
3. Civilian populated areas or buildings unless the enemy is using them for military
purposes . . . 51

The source that was cited in the document was from Dick Camp's Operation Phantom Fury: The Assault and Capture of Fallujah, Iraq.

This could be a case where the U.S. military branches approached the conflict differently (the Marines had ROE while the Army didn't).
Recon4thCav
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Question on ROE

They word it to cover thier ass. Research the Marine that shot an injured Iraq in a Mosque and was not charged with anything(CNN was there and recorded it). No one was charged with any war crime. If you think we killed 600-800 civilians, do you not think some of us would have been charged with war crimes?

I remember my orders like they were yesterday.
Recon4thCav
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Question on ROE

Go to page 17. Everyone that remained in Fallujah was assumed to be an insurgent. That right there gave us permission to kill anyone and not be charged with a war crime.
Tan_47
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:26 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Question on ROE

Recon4thCav wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:21 pm They word it to cover thier ass. Research the Marine that shot an injured Iraq in a Mosque and was not charged with anything(CNN was there and recorded it). No one was charged with any war crime. If you think we killed 600-800 civilians, do you not think some of us would have been charged with war crimes?

I remember my orders like they were yesterday.
Let me clarify: I wasn't implying or suggesting that you or anybody that you know were committing war crimes.
I was simply answering your question on if the Marines had any rules of engagement. I gave you a document along with the original source that was provided. That was it.

I just wanted to answer your question concerning ROE.
Post Reply